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sb1536
9 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2016 : 05:59:25
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I have an eprom chip that always fails the verify after a read to buffer. Furthermore, every time I read it in it seems to come up with a different one of about 5 possible checksums.
What's odd is that the chip seems to run the machinery fine. An identical model chip, which unfortunately does not have the right cycle timings, reads reliably.
When the verify fails, it usually fails around the same addresses. Furthermore, it will alternate the buffer and read values for the same address. So sometimes I'll see this:
---
Verifying... Buffer
Verify Failed, Address=0x0000FE, Device=0xC0, Buffer=0x40
Verify Failed
---
Then later the verify will fail like this:
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Verifying... Buffer
Verify Failed, Address=0x0000FE, Device=0x40, Buffer=0xC0
Verify Failed
---
Unfortunately, I'm unable to duplicate / backup the chip because of this.
I'm thinking a damaged or corrupted chip?
Any possibilities of cobbling together a working file from the various reads?
Particulars:
chip: MBM2764
reader: GQ 4x4
Software: GQUSBprg 7.09 w/ Driver 3.0 on Win 8.1
External power supply is being used
Speed turned down to "0"
Thanks
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| Reply #1
ZLM
2945 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2016 : 19:33:35
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It could be the chip problem.
Try to get another new chip, if it has same problem, then then the software may need a tune.
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| Reply #2
sb1536
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2016 : 12:18:31
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Thanks.
Not sure getting a new chip will be possible. The machinery is so old that the manufacturer doesn't have them anymore. We have a second chip from them, but it doesn't have the right cycle timing for our process. That chip reads fine and I can duplicate it. |
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| Reply #3
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2016 : 16:07:49
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| I may have some MBM2764 here. What suffix you need? |
Edited by - anniel on 06/02/2016 16:10:30 |
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| Reply #4
sb1536
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 21:45:04
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quote:
Originally posted by anniel
I may have some MBM2764 here. What suffix you need?
Hi Anniel,
Thank you for the generous offer. I should have been more clear, it's not the physical MBM2764-25 that I need, as I have already procured a number of chips. It's the chip with the actual machinery program that I need.
Now, if you happen to have an original IDD Mini-King with the Omron C28K controller that has the long steam sanitizing cycle firmware on a chip that isn't partially borked...  |
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| Reply #5
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 03:19:18
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| The Omron C28K is well documented, can't you just edit the cycle that is incorrect? |
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| Reply #6
sb1536
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 04:03:01
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| I'm not sure I would know how to do that. What software would I use to open the bin or hex file downloaded from the stable chip with the wrong cycle time and put it into something I can sort of understand? |
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| Reply #7
anniel
2572 Posts |
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| Reply #8
sb1536
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 16:30:26
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quote:
Originally posted by anniel
Any HEX editor should work.
HxD www.mh-nexus.de/en/hxd/ is a basic free tool.
Hex Edit www.hexedit.com/ is also free but more advanced.
Thanks.
Basically what happens is that on the chip with correct timings, whenever it is read in, the checksum changes, so it won't even verify (yet somehow the machine still runs). I saved a bunch of reads as hex and used hexedit to diff the files. Seems that the variations appear to always occur at the same handful of addresses. It doesn't error each time at each address, just sometimes and the values tend to alternate between a few values for each address. So I diffed one of these vs the stable chip with the wrong timing and and replaced those values with the ones from the stable chip.
It probably won't work, but what do I have to lose.
I also located in the archives what might or might be a copy of the program on the chip, but it's broken into two .dat files. I'm not sure how to convert this to .bin or .hex so I can burn it with the GQ 4x4 and see what the timing is. I'm not sure what programmer it's designed to work with, or if it's even truly the firmware program. |
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| Reply #9
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2016 : 03:18:42
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| Sometimes changing the reading voltage slightly work for hard to read chips. Does the 2 chips have a similar output file other than the read errors? The .dat can be opened with the HEX editor to look inside and find the similarities with your chips. |
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| Reply #10
sb1536
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2016 : 05:50:55
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This is what is in my devices file for the MBM2764
Name="MBM2764",ID="XXXX",Class="2764(21V Vpp)",Category="EPROM",MFG="Fujitsu",VCC="5V",WVPP="21V",WVCC="6.2V",BVCC="5V",RVPP="5V",Message="Apply external power !";//by EZo, added RVPP,WVCC by Krankshaft
There are about 9 address locations in the hex file that seem to have read errors. The output files are similar aside from some addresses in one area where I've never experienced read errors, I suspect these are the timing differences for the steam sanitize cycle.
When I open the dat files with the editor, they don't appear to be anything like the hex files. They are just patterns of the same character rather than something that might be code, I don't really know how to describe it. |
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| Reply #11
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2016 : 06:59:03
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"one area where I've never experienced read errors, I suspect these are the timing differences for the steam sanitize cycle."
Copy the HEX from that section and paste it in the right place in the good file with te wrong timing and burn it to a good EPROM for testing in the Mini-King / C28K. |
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| Reply #12
sb1536
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2016 : 07:06:56
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| Thanks, I'll give that a try. |
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| Reply #13
sb1536
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2016 : 07:45:06
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In regards to the earlier mention of increasing the read voltage for dodgy chips, I pulled the data sheet on the MBM2764 and it lists the following for Vcc:
Absolute maximum in relation to ground: +7.0
Recommended minimum: 4.5
Recommended typical: 5.0
Recommended maximum: 5.25
For Vpp:
Absolute maximum: 22.0
Recommended minimum: Vcc-0.6
Recommended maximum: Vcc+0.6
This is what I have in the devices file
Name="MBM2764",ID="XXXX",Class="2764(21V Vpp)",Category="EPROM",MFG="Fujitsu",VCC="5V",WVPP="21V",WVCC="6.2V",BVCC="5V",RVPP="5V",Message="Apply external power !";//by EZo, added RVPP,WVCC by Krankshaft
Would I increase the VCC or the RVPP value to accomplish this? And is that even possible to specify voltages between 5 and 6.2 as I thought I saw a comment somewhere about the programmer having to use certain fixed voltages (I could be mistaken though). |
Edited by - sb1536 on 06/16/2016 07:45:56 |
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| Reply #14
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2016 : 08:47:16
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Try all possible combination of lower and higher than 5v for VCC and VPP to try to get a good read.
Yes the GQ4X uses fixed voltages.
You need to use 2 precision variable power supplies and isolate VPP and VCC pins from the ZIF socket with folded strips of paper. |
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| Reply #15
ZLM
2945 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2016 : 20:18:03
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The unstable data from those locations may be caused by nature of the EPROM due to the long time storage , OR incorrect programming VCC used when they were programmed. In that case, increase the EPROM VCC voltage may help the data reading. But to completely solve the problem, the EPROM need to be erased and reprogrammed with correct VCC and VPP.
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| Reply #16
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2016 : 03:12:16
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| Yes the original chip should be considered unreliable until re-burned even if the bottling equipment reads it. |
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| Reply #17
sb1536
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2016 : 05:42:41
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Thanks for the help.
Variable lab power supplies are not something I currently have access to. For that I might have to send the chip to a local shop that did some repairs on our PLCs a few years ago.
Is there a list somewhere of the fixed voltages that can be selected on the GQ 4x4?
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| Reply #18
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2016 : 07:27:40
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| Look in the "test h/w" menu for voltage diagnostic. |
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| Reply #19
ZLM
2945 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2016 : 10:43:24
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The specific chip VCC voltage can be defined in devices.txt.
The available voltage are: 3.3V/3.6V, 5V, 5.5V, 6.2V/6.5V |
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| Reply #20
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2017 : 07:37:49
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quote:
Originally posted by ZLM
The specific chip VCC voltage can be defined in devices.txt.
The available voltage are: 3.3V/3.6V, 5V, 5.5V, 6.2V/6.5V
Useful ref. |
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| Reply #21
supervizeur
462 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2017 : 05:48:50
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quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by ZLM
The specific chip VCC voltage can be defined in devices.txt.
The available voltage are: 3.3V/3.6V, 5V, 5.5V, 6.2V/6.5V
Useful ref.
Yes, there should be a sticky with all devices.txt options. |
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| Reply #22
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2017 : 04:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by supervizeur
quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by ZLM
The specific chip VCC voltage can be defined in devices.txt.
The available voltage are: 3.3V/3.6V, 5V, 5.5V, 6.2V/6.5V
Useful ref.
Yes, there should be a sticky with all devices.txt options.
+1 |
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| Reply #23
MTav
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2019 : 12:46:44
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| Wow! I'm going through this same thing. Does anyone have a copy of the .dat file sb1536 is mentioning? |
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| Reply #24
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2019 : 13:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by MTav
Wow! I'm going through this same thing. Does anyone have a copy of the .dat file sb1536 is mentioning?
Same machine? |
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| Reply #25
MTav
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2019 : 13:48:22
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quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
Wow! I'm going through this same thing. Does anyone have a copy of the .dat file sb1536 is mentioning?
Same machine?
Yes, it's a IDD Mini King with an Omron C28K PLC. |
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| Reply #26
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2019 : 14:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by MTav
quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
Wow! I'm going through this same thing. Does anyone have a copy of the .dat file sb1536 is mentioning?
Same machine?
Yes, it's a IDD Mini King with an Omron C28K PLC.
Maybe sb1536 has the file otherwise your best bet is multiple reads. |
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| Reply #27
MTav
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2019 : 12:03:06
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He said he'd found it a file for it in the "Archives". I tried searching "Archived Topics" and so matter what, it comes up with empty results.quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
Wow! I'm going through this same thing. Does anyone have a copy of the .dat file sb1536 is mentioning?
Same machine?
Yes, it's a IDD Mini King with an Omron C28K PLC.
Maybe sb1536 has the file otherwise your best bet is multiple reads.
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| Reply #28
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2019 : 13:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MTav
He said he'd found it a file for it in the "Archives". I tried searching "Archived Topics" and so matter what, it comes up with empty results.quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
Wow! I'm going through this same thing. Does anyone have a copy of the .dat file sb1536 is mentioning?
Same machine?
Yes, it's a IDD Mini King with an Omron C28K PLC.
Maybe sb1536 has the file otherwise your best bet is multiple reads.
Only him knows where he found it. |
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| Reply #29
MTav
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2019 : 14:43:55
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I think I got it!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8e0zjplhqsu9wek/Omron%20Chip.bin?dl=0
quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
He said he'd found it a file for it in the "Archives". I tried searching "Archived Topics" and so matter what, it comes up with empty results.quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
Wow! I'm going through this same thing. Does anyone have a copy of the .dat file sb1536 is mentioning?
Same machine?
Yes, it's a IDD Mini King with an Omron C28K PLC.
Maybe sb1536 has the file otherwise your best bet is multiple reads.
Only him knows where he found it.
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| Reply #30
anniel
2572 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2019 : 15:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by MTav
I think I got it!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8e0zjplhqsu9wek/Omron%20Chip.bin?dl=0
quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
He said he'd found it a file for it in the "Archives". I tried searching "Archived Topics" and so matter what, it comes up with empty results.quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
quote:
Originally posted by anniel
quote:
Originally posted by MTav
Wow! I'm going through this same thing. Does anyone have a copy of the .dat file sb1536 is mentioning?
Same machine?
Yes, it's a IDD Mini King with an Omron C28K PLC.
Maybe sb1536 has the file otherwise your best bet is multiple reads.
Only him knows where he found it.
How would someone know it's for the same machine or even the same PLC? |
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corrupt chip?
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